View Transcript

Hide Transcript

Transcript is auto-generated.

[Music]  good morning everyone good morning thank  you for a Bluewater cruising Association  for hosting this event so you got to  know what your daily nap our budget is  right this number right here and then  the next question you've got to ask  yourself and this is really essential is  when's the next time I'm gonna be  recharging my batteries right think  about it do you mean are you lucky for  example some people have a generator  they run the generator in the morning in  the evening besides the fact of the  noise and the sound and the vibration  for them there the amount of time that  they need to worry about power is from  the last time they run in the evening  which is maybe six or seven or eight  until they run in the next day in the  morning nine o'clock so maybe they're  running it every you know they're gonna  get our charge every half day some cell  borders I even had a power border come  to me had about a forty foot boat he  says to me says Jeff I don't want to run  my generator every I have one but I  don't want to run it more than every  five days I want to be on the hook on my  batteries for five days you know came  from a sailing background he's like yeah  I've got a power boat but I like quiet  and I have a generator but I don't want  to run it all the time so we give a  battery bank that allowed him to do five  times the daily amp hour rate right and  this is where the math comes in and  there's a method to this whole magic is  well your usable battery capacity has to  be what your daily amp our budget is  times the estimated time between  charging think about traveling in the  80s you know before I maybe you didn't  have traveler's check you need to carry  the cash you're gonna have in your  pocket I mean how else are you gonna if  you didn't have a credit card you're  gone for a week you got any money for a  week and so if you're not able to  resupply energy in your battery bank and  you're gonna say an anchor for two days  and your daily is for example 200 amp  hours and you're at an anchorage for two  days then you need 400 amp hours of  usable battery capacity and that's the  method to what is perceived to be the  madness but it's not madness it's just  math  question about what the ratio between  usable and the batteries you need and  this is exactly where we are right here  so let's recap what we talked about  flooded battery the floor is 50 percent  AGM and gel is floor is 30 percent  Firefly is 20 the ceiling on all these  flooded lead-acid batteries is 85 hence  a flooded battery has only 35% usable  AGM gel is 55 and Firefly AGM is 65 this  is sort of a recap of what we talked  about right it's all about energy  density and the lúthien would be 80%  usable right that's why people do  lithium it's crazy amount of energy per  footprint and for weight top 15% for  batteries is what's called the  absorption rate the absorption rate  takes forever to recharge back you'll  get there but you have to be patient and  the problem is if you're under way with  an alternator or you're recharging with  yeah an alternator or a generator and  you're running a charger it's  diminishing returns the moment you get  around 80 85 percent but let's call 85  it's a really good battery from 85 to  100 might take you 5 X what it took you  from 50 to 85 so if time is no factor  and you have lots of time how you  connected short power overnight you'll  get back to 100 but while you're under  way I have boat owners they say Jeff is  taking forever to recharge my batteries  I'm like ok when do you stop when I get  to 100 I'm like it's like a marginal tax  rate of light 98% at one point you've  got to ask yourself is it worthwhile for  me to put the same effort I did on the  first hour on my fourteenth hour when  I'm only getting now 2% of the returns I  did on the first hour and then as a  boarder you're like well no that's kind  of silly why would I do that and hence  it's better to run within that bulk rate  right where you get the maximum amount  of returns and that's a place where  you're not taxed once you get to 85% its  absorption and that means high tax rate  so you're still you you're creating the  engine around you're generating all  those noises there but your batteries  are saying I can't do it I'm full it's  sort like having a seven-course dinner  your first course you might hungry you  might be hungry on the second the third  the fourth maybe maybe the fifth  but let me tell you at the 6th course  you're slowing down like there's no way  your first bite on the first course is  the same as your sixth course and if you  are well you're still growing  congratulations right but none of us at  one point you're like I can't do it and  the seventh course when they take out  the cheese's and they put a few little  grapes  that's flow charging that's you nimbly  nibbling on the food at the table and  sort of just sort of keeping up with at  that point you could sustain that for a  period of time but you're just barely  taking a bite that's float but 80 to 85  to 100 is absorption and that's a high  tax rate I tell boaters all the time I  rather you for example have if you have  a generator I'd rather you run the  generator twice a day for an hour  morning and night so you stay in bulk  then run it once in the morning for two  hours and then get to absorption and  then you have diminishing returns we  would do this in our normal lives by the  way like at one point you're going well  it's not worth it like if I've got a 98  percent marginal tax rate you're like  why am i working like I'm not getting  the returns if I wait another four hours  and do it later then I'm gonna get  higher returns so you slow down right  and you stay within that bulk mode and  that's what is you're calculating so  that's your usable battery capacities  from 1585 3285 and 2285 for flooded AGM  or gel or Firefly lithium would be 80%  you know what happens if you go below  30% you know with your battery for  example for an AGM gel well it's not  like 29 is like you're off a cliff but  don't get cocky don't start going 20  it's diminishing returns there's a  charge curve here's the example summary  you take a flooded lead-acid battery for  example at 50% depth of discharge you  have 300 cycles if you bring your  battery down to zero every time which is  away a lot of boaters do it to be honest  I stop I start charging my batteries  when the lights go dim or my fridge  stops that's about ten point five volts  when you get to that point it's like you  know when I decide to go to bed this  would be a perfect analogy is when I am  actually working and I fall on the  ground and pass out that's when I know  that it stopped overtime to work and you  could do that  you could and that doesn't mean you're  actually lying  no no you're passing up standing like  you're falling down passing out and  you're like oh yeah that was a good day  you know I was feel pretty productive  and you're like oh next time let's do it  all over again and then you can you  imagine that's called a life event okay  if you pass out working standing up  standing up and you fall down that's  what's bringing your battery to ten  point five volts is and if you do that  your battery is going to give you 50  cycles so it's a ratio of six fifteen  and three hundred is six and that's why  people have battery beliefs that are so  much shorter than others what happens is  they unbeknown to them because they  don't have a battery monitor they're  taking their batteries so hard and the  battery's not complaining right it's  sort of like my chocolate lab she'd  fetch until I say stop  she would never stop she's like let's do  this it's amazing her hip is torn she's  like limping she's like this is great  let's keep doing it she would fetch  until she dies because she's a lab your  battery will do everything you asked of  it until it dies  but then when it dies also understand  there's a cost implication in battery  life alright does that make sense yeah  question in the back the question is  what happens if you keep your batteries  below 85% forever and you never charge  them you could not do that you can't  that that top end battery will be lost  you need and that's what happens with  cruisers that go offshore at one point  you need to find a way to get your  batteries back to a hundred percent and  the way to do that would be solar for  example because solar works in the  background quietly and if you don't do  that which some cruisers can't they  didn't have solar then you end up having  to equalize your batteries a lot because  of the sulfation and so you read these  how-to manuals and people talk about  equalization their battery and I'm not  gonna go there because that is a full  rabbit hole and I will have people  running for the doors so we're not gonna  do that but you would equalize your  batteries once a month to maintain that  top end okay another question so the  question is what store can you get two  hundred-percent yeah if you raise big  enough and your array doesn't just meet  your loads but it surpasses your loads  right like we'll talk about solar but  yes solar would be a good way because  solar just works in the background it's  free you know it doesn't matter it  doesn't bother you it's just there you  know you use it or not it's there's no  noise associated the challenge with an  ultra  or a generator is it's not pleasant and  if it's pleasant to you I envy you  because when I hear a generator altura  running I don't care if I'm on a power  boat or a sailboat it's not the most  endearing sound of my life I choose to  limit that noise for a certain amount of  time and I understand it's a cost of  doing business right but at the same  time I don't want it to be running in  the background forever especially if I  have diminishing returns we'll talk  about that a little bit later because  there's a lot of charging and we'll talk  about that so this is sort of a summary  chart of AGM Firefly flooded and this  gives you sort of all the things that we  just talked about are sort of summarized  you'll pay more for better don't kid  yourself you know if cars are not priced  with the least valuable car for the most  amount of money or vice versa if you  want a better car you're gonna end up  paying more for it than if you want it's  a choice it's just a choice yeah like  for example a flooded group thirty-one  battery for example is gonna run you  like a Rolls one it's probably gonna be  a hundred and seventy five dollars for a  deep cycle battery an AGM battery group  31 is about 400 450 and a Firefly is  around 700 $750 so ratios the same  battery size right you got to compare  apples to apples you can't start  comparing grapefruits to apples because  then your whole world is gonna come  completely confusing yeah question do  all batteries come in two flavors of  either sprint or a marathon either  starter or deep cycle flooded batteries  do absolutely you can buy a battery of  flooded battery as either starter  battery a deep cycle battery or a dual  purpose battery right sort of like a  all-weather tire so there's three  flavors for flooded a GM is mostly it's  actually really good for both but now  they started making AGM batteries are  just dedicated for starter for example  Northstar has a really good high  cranking amp AGM battery and Firefly is  only deep cycle people come to me all  the time they say Jeff I want a I want  the best we're going to do everything  Firefly I'm like well everything except  the starter  because there's no point in buying a  firefly a star battery it's not good  it's double the price and you don't need  it  and like but I won the best I'm like  yeah I know you want the best but in  this case the best for starter is less  so we're gonna spend less money on a  starter battery because your Firefly  battery is just not going to be as good  for a starter application it's a deep  cycle battery AGM batteries have  basically a 50% longer life at the  maximum depth of discharge than a  flooded battery so you can trade off  cycle life versus depth of discharge  right Firefly had the biggest depth of  discharge bringing them down all to 20%  are still four times more than a flooded  lead-acid battery but if you do cycle  cycle fifty percent fifty percent one of  them is 300 and you can either get 3600  cycles or 4700 cycles  question the question is there a  difference in sizes between an AGM  battery and a flooded lead-acid battery  and there isn't a group 31 is a group 31  battery so when you buy a battery you're  gonna buy it based on the size you're  gonna say I want a golf cart a golf cart  is a known dimension you can buy a golf  cart a GM or golf cart flooded and  they're exactly the same physical  dimensions so an ad battery for example  or a 4 D battery or a group 31 battery  all of those batteries actually are  known dimensions and that you buy a GM  or flooded it doesn't matter it's still  the same size so you can retrofit a boat  that has four golf carts flooded and you  can replace them with four golf cart a  GM and they're going to be the same  physical size what happens if you  replace a flooded or acid battery with  an AGM battery do you have to worry  about the charger yes you should have a  charger that's compatible with AGM a  charger that less than about 20 years  old is going to have that feature  there's gonna be a setting for AGM so  yes you would your alternator not so  much there one about the same thing 14 4  14 6 now if you only had an alternator  and didn't have a charger then yes you  would want to have and we'll talk about  that an external regulator that would be  configurable to AGM I don't want to get  to that's starting geeking out it's not  storage it's charging we'll talk about  charging it a little bit later ok and  look how much big your battery bank has  to be if you need a 200 amp hours  usable you'll need either 600 400 or 300  right and that's why some people say to  me I've got sailors racers and they're  like for me it's all about weight Jeff  all about weight yeah I got this space I  don't care about the space because  there's nothing in the boat I'm racing  to me it doesn't matter but weight  matters gave me a battery bang that's  gonna do the job with the least amount  of weight and so what they'll end up  doing is either Firefly a GM for sure  because it's a way to get more energy  density or I've been on some like crazy  race boats like the super all carbon  ones and they're doing with you because  they're measuring everything in grams  like they know every block everything is  measured in grams they know everything  weighs and so then they'll they'll be  very tempted to do lithium because  lithium has the highest amount of energy  density per weight you can see batteries  come all different sizes and you can buy  them at all different types of battery  chemistry's you can might even buy an 8  d battery and lithium because they're  trying to make it easy it's sort of like  buying lumber you can buy a 2x4 that's  made of fur you can make one that's made  of a different material they're just  simply saying that's the shape and now  you choose what it is made of right so  you can buy a for example golf car  battery and you can buy it as flooded or  AGM or gel you choose right so first you  choose the physical dimensions which is  an adgroup 31 golf cart then you choose  the chemistry and then back to the other  question was now should I buy a battery  as a starter application deep-cycle or  dual purpose I had an unfortunate story  with a boat owner about a few years ago  he bought a battery and it was labeled  as AGM and it was a miraculous battery  first of all that battery was purchased  at the back of a trunk of a car so  that's a first  and it came at a screaming deal of a  price so are we there you're like wow  you're really fortunate the guy sold  back of that service or a runaway  vehicle depends on how you see it right  the battery was half the weight so half  the weight is half the battery there's  no other way to describe it you're  buying led okay so if your battery way  half and it's a flooded letter it's a  lettuce and battery you got half the  battery already there it's like yeah  this is an ad that weighs half the  weight of normal ladies I'm like no it's  not half the weight it's half the  battery  okay that's already there you don't have  the full battery and it was an AGM  battery that needed to be topped off so  it was a special AGM sense to me that it  was a flooded lead-acid battery that was  really cheaply done and it was just turn  around it's sort of like the snake oil  salesman you know going from town to  town  and you know there's no sort of like  refunds because he keeps moving and he's  on the next town just selling other  deals and so you always got to remember  that when you're buying a battery you're  buying LED and lad equals capacity and  there's no shortcuts  every boat builder knows that every  single one it doesn't matter who they  are they're always hitting the magic  note what happens is the boat comes for  delivery and then people want more  batteries and they just add more  batteries but what the Bo respect for  guaranteed every single boat that comes  out of factory is meeting that  requirement 10% charge rate as a  function of battery capacity meaning if  you have a 400 amp hour deep cycle  battery you will have 10% of 400 is 40  amps now if you double that battery bank  suddenly the charger isn't miraculously  double doesn't change still 40 amps now  you doubled the battery bank you have  800 amp hours and you still have a 40  amp battery charger you're gonna see  your batteries will die prematurely  because you now you only have 5% of a  charger II question is what is a  reasonable charge rate for batteries and  it's going to be between ten and twenty  five percent for flooded and for AGM  it's ten to forty five five wants a  minimum of twenty minimum twenty they  can take forty no problem as a charge  rate lithium can take three times of  capacity you could have a 200 amp hour  battery bank and you could put 600 amps  into that battery bank so you would  charge it if it was completely empty all  the way to zero which is not you would  charge it in literally twenty minutes  that's why people love lithium because  they have a very very high charge  acceptance rate which is car  oh it's big-boy money like you can spend  a grin for a battery an ad you know ten  grand like we did a boat 8,000 us for an  ad versus 400 flooded 20x but the  battery is crazy you know energy density  life is 5,000 cycles I mean you'll never  change that battery people go offshore  they're putting in lithium they're gonna  be offshore ten years they'll never see  that they'll never change those battery  banks they'll cycle those batteries  every day and how do people do lithium  because they also want to wear  air-conditioning  they've got height like a lithium  battery is a pretty miraculous battery  it doesn't matter how much you loaded  it'll pretty much give you anything you  need  so like catamarans that want around  aircon overnight on battery banks are  gonna have lithium battery banks but you  got to be willing to stomach the pain at  the beginning the cost per unit is gonna  hurt there's no doubt about it because  the comparison is but it's not over  price you're getting something different  so you can't really compare right it's  yeah you spend way more money but you're  doing it for a reason you're not doing  it just a flash it's not you're doing it  for a purpose but most people don't need  that purpose and hence why most people  don't buy lithium it's just not required  for everyone you want to make sure your  batteries are secured from moving the  other big thing is the positive and  negative cables I'm pretty big about  this and I've got ajust a presentation  just on batteries also on the website  about putting the leza the opposite ends  your battery bank should be one location  sometimes people have battery banks a  different location you try to avoid that  as much as possible and if they are in  different locations your house battery  bank you have for golf carts on one side  of the boat and for golf carts on the  other then you have to take certain  precautions about that battery banks  should be in one physical location now  you could have multiple battery banks on  your boat you could have a thruster bank  up front you could have a house battery  bank a starter Bank that's fine but if  they're part of one bank they need to be  in a one location and this point here  keep battery connections to a minimum  goes back to think about a car battery  and think how many connections are in a  car battery there's only two there's a  positive and a negative  everything is distributed  right and when you think about  electrical the people I was not in the  room but you can see what they were  thinking they were using the word trunk  lines right branch circuits they're  thinking about trunk is all the current  that's coming out and it goes to a  distribution one and then from that  point and go through branch circuits  right  so they're not trying to bring  everything back at the battery because  it's not modular it's not clean a  battery post is not a place where you  can have 20 connections right it should  go to a distribution point and from a  distribution one then it fans out okay  examples some batteries this is pretty  popular like we basically use these  really sort of like I'm a sailor and I'm  always thinking capsized and I'm always  thinking you're gonna be in a body of  water and you're gonna have side seas  and you under no circumstances can your  battery ever move on your boat never  ever I don't care what happens I never  like the book could be inverted and my  battery banks are gonna stay in place  because you can't have that amount of  weight sloshing around in a bad seat  you're gonna destroy sea-cocks  things are gonna get broken it's too  much weight it's sort of like having a  gorilla or a bull in your engine room if  gotta be tied down and so you end up  using these sort of like we really  beefed it up you'll see here we've got  aluminum guard  I see cell builders they're putting a  wood all around they're like thinking  what happens if I get a knockdown you  can't have the battery drop down because  it's gonna create a hole in the ceiling  right you can't have something that  weighs 200 300 pounds follow eight feet  because of a knockdown it would be end  of days the batteries have to stay in  place and if ever you see electrolyte on  a battery that's a sign of sweating and  it's either a sign of aging overcharging  or overfilling and it's no it's not  moisture and that happens all the time  all the time all of that is battery acid  and the way you neutralize it is with  baking soda this is what happens to a  boat owner who's stubborn and doesn't  overfill their batteries that's the  inside of a vent cap notice how all the  plates are actually they shouldn't none  of this should be touching  this should all be separated that's and  also once your battery bank that plate  is exposed it's done you're in a you  lost  you can never expose your battery plates  on a battery never black and white you  think you can you're gonna top it off  and you're gonna hope fingers crossed  but it's going to be a journey of  disappointment it's just not gonna work  out for you and I talked about battery  connections at opposite ends so one of  the frequently asked questions is can  you mix and match different battery  chemistry chemistry's now within a bank  ever right black and white you can't  have two golf carts AGM and two golf  carts flooded connected in one battery  bank and the challenge is different  batteries want different charge profiles  so we're going to talk about that later  and so you can only charge one setting  on your charger you might have three  outputs but you're gonna have to make a  decision which battery so like having  three kids and they all have different  dietary requirements and you got to make  a compliment you're cooking one meal and  that meal is one meal for everyone you  can't have three different meals for  three kids you're cooking one meal so if  you're cooking one meal for three kids  which one are you gonna cook right well  then I'd say well if you've got five fly  or AGM and that was a house battery  banking it cost you two grand or three  grand or five grand or whatever it is  then take care of those ones first and  sacrifice the other ones but that's why  you want one type of battery chemistry  because chargers do not output different  profiles on different charger leads  right and your alternator if you  configure it for a GM it's going to be a  GM one output an alternate doesn't say a  GM for one bank a gel for another and  lithium for another it says one profile  and everyone's gonna have again one meal  you can't pick and choose and so that's  why you can't mix and match battery  banks and if you do know that your other  battery banks are not getting what they  need and they're gonna have a shorter  life because you're either going to be  under charge or over charged how would  you go around there well around the  problem of having different battery  banks of an AGM and flooded is having  different chargers so we'll see some  boats well we'll have an inverter  charger that is doing an AGM  battery bank and then that boat has  thruster flooded starter thrust flooded  and whatever genset flooded and we'll  put an auxilary charger with a flooded  charge profile for those batteries and  then we'll have the inverter charger  beyond AGM but then we also have to  worry that there's no combiners that  join the charges they have to be  completely separate so with that I'm  going to open the floor to questions a  cycle would be sort of a version of a  cycle for us and humans would be for  example every time you go to bed and  sleep that's a cycle right that would be  a cycle so a battery means until how far  do you discharge and until you start  charging again that's a cycle so if for  example you're on a sailboat and you  move every day your cycle would maybe  let's say you stopped motoring at 4  o'clock and you don't motor again until  2 o'clock in the afternoon and I know  your sailboat and you motor but let's be  honest certain places in the world don't  sail as much as we walk to British  Columbia being one of them  so you're motoring and so your cycle  would be that 22 hour period and then  you start recharging some boats that  cycle might be three days on the hook  power boats - and if you're not running  a generator or an alternator that cycle  might be a three day cycle and so every  time you bring the cycle that's one and  how far you go those are the two levers  that affect your battery life how deep  you go and how often do you do it  question what setting would you use on  your boy for the first leg better I do  either an AGM yeah I would probably end  up doing an AGM charge profile because  AGM and Firefly are very very similar  very very similar  what happens when i discharged my  battery to zero and zero is ten point  five volts it goes further than that but  ten point five is the end and that could  happen when you lose your power and  you've had your refrigerator on or you  left your inverter on and you lost shore  power and your battery string for  whatever reason your batteries went to  zero right which is ten point five volts  so it's complicated because it's also a  function of time so if you brought your  batteries down to ten point five volts  and you recharged them right away and  they were flooded lead-acid you could do  that 50 times so you lost only two  percent of capacity it's not a big deal  right two percent but what happens is  most of us don't realize that our  batteries went to two point five volts  the moment it gets there and we recharge  them sometimes they're going to be  discharged for a week two weeks three  weeks a month two months the longer the  time between when they were at zero and  the time you recharge the batteries it's  gonna affect your battery life so for  example if your batteries were left  discharged for a month at zero they're  done they're finished now I know you  have hope I hear it all the time  I know I know tell this owners I'm like  sure your batteries are fine yeah yeah I  know that's what you want to hear let's  say that good no problem let's believe  you know what there's nothing wrong with  though just don't go on your vacation  with hope you know just just do the  whole thing when it doesn't matter right  start going boating maybe at the dock  let's hope at the dock right when your  partners aren't on board or your  teenager or your daughter and if they're  not gonna be upset when they lose the  battery banks and it's gonna make  boating less fun so but find out that  discovery you're gonna find that very  soon and you don't have to take my word  for it just go through the paces and try  to pretend this is a day at the dock  which is a day at Anchorage and see what  your battery voltage does and then  you'll probably realize that you're in a  world of hurt and it's painful I mean  that happens I hear that conversation at  least a hundred at least a hundred times  a year with boaters at least I get it  all the time but yeah it's it's about  time think about us as imagine you did  an ultramarathon  and you couldn't rest you couldn't drink  fluids you  couldn't eat you had no way to recharge  it's a life event  if you can't rest after you've done  something incredibly hard and you went  to the bottom and you're literally you  fall down on the ground pass out and  they start waking you up and you can't  fall asleep and you're so tired that you  want to rest your batteries will never  recuperate from that they just won't  know if it happened and you're there  sure you can recuperate but time is of  the essence it's like going on the other  side if you die you got a window to come  back right but if you've dead for a day  or a week they're not bringing you back  on the other side you're gone and your  batteries are gone too yeah question how  do you know your batteries are no longer  what they used to be and that is you  know that vipole tidge so that's a  really great question I get that  question 200 times a year at least  that's a great one and they say to me  they say Jeff I have a battery monitor  and my battery monitor says my batteries  are 80% but my fridge stops working  which one is right my fridge like my  batteries are dead or my monitors right  I'm like no your batteries are dead if  your batteries are a 10.5 volts and  you're at 80% of capacity you're done  you're finished so a voltage is a  perfect perfect tool to quantify or  qualify if your batteries are still  there or not because the two have to  line up once your battery capacity  effective as a percentage and your volts  don't align right if they're completely  off of whack and again I'm thinking  about my mom and she was you know doing  old-school balancing the columns and the  rows to see when because you know she  was a business owner and seeing if the  two rows and the columns the sum of the  rows and the columns didn't add up then  she knew she did a math there if your if  your battery capacity on your battery  monitor says you're at 85% or 90% and  your batteries are at ten point five  volts and your battery monitor was  installed properly and it's always been  working properly and suddenly it doesn't  make sense that difference between those  two is an indication that your batteries  are dead the question is is there a  simple way to know what if you can test  a deep-cycle battery and the answer is  no absolutely not there is no simple way  you can do that with a cranking battery  there's two methods you have capacitance  testers these little sort of probes you  see texts and car mechanics do that  there  I've seen those so off so off there's no  like I bought testers there were a grand  two grand  it's pfm pure f magic it has nothing to  dare on the truth they can be either  right or wrong so random the only way to  test a deep cycle battery is to do  what's called a c20 discharge test again  I'm not gonna bore everyone it's on the  website I've got pretty detailed  instructions it's the only way to know  how long you're gonna run a marathon is  by running a marathon you can maybe run  10k but you can't sprint to know what  your marathon time is gonna be you just  can't you just can't now a tester for  starter batteries is different they're  actually just partying a carbon pile  load test err they're putting that on  the battery and they're simulating a 600  app load by actually putting a 600 a  mode and you see what your voltage is  gonna do that works no problem all right  that's Carbon pile load test ERG works  great but for deep cycle there is no  replacement it's a c20 test there is no  other way of doing it other questions  before break okay no change of operation  of the boat and the voltage goes up  voltage batteries don't bring voltages  up they don't the only thing that would  do that is your charger or your  alternator generally that's probably  well underway and your your charger has  failed if it's above 14 for and it could  be higher if it's  temperature-compensated  right it could be higher because battery  chargers are some of them are  temperature compensated and I've seen  battery chargers go to 15 to 15 3 but if  you're running your engine and you've  got a typical alternator with no  external regulator and the voltage is  higher than normal then you're gonna  cook your batteries and you're gonna  kill them very soon very very quickly so  a question is how frequently should you  bring your batteries pass bring them  back to a hundred percent you know if  they're staying around 85 and you're  cruising for how what frequency I'd say  ideally would be every two weeks but  some people do it maybe once a month  yeah I mean you do what you can right  generally under way you're gonna make  ground see you know if you're doing a  long day you're gonna recharge your  batteries and you're gonna plug in at  shore power but for people that go  completely off grid like they never  charge with a charger and they don't  have a generator that's their batteries  wear down very quickly because they end  up self a ting because they don't get  that a hundred percent back it's very  hard because your alternator would have  to run for so long you'd be running that  alternator at idle for so long to  recharge your battery to a hundred  percent that people don't end up doing  that and so then they have to end up  equalizing the batteries a lot to offset  sulfation  how do you get 100% with solar well you  would get 100% with solar if and this is  a big if your solar array outpaces your  draws right so if you've got like I did  a big lagoon recently we did about two  thousand watt array well that owner  doesn't have a problem with getting his  batteries back two hundred percent right  my boat I have a normal boat thirty six  foot sailboat I have a 450 watery I  don't have problems to get back to  hundred percent every single day but the  flip side is if you have a tiny array  tiny array is a tiny salary you know if  you're working a minimum wage and you've  got a lot of expenses you're barely  gonna meet demand even if you're frugal  and so there's an argument for having a  large enough array that is gonna offset  demands within the sunny period get you  back to near 100 and then when darkness  comes then you discharge and then you  repeat right but you need a larger way  to do that array is a large solar array  ie  a bunch of solar panels connected any  other questions before we go for a break  and I'm probably gonna have to call  break because yeah go ahead  you wouldn't need the question is can  you equalize with an alternator and you  can and only if you have an alternator  with an external regulator and that  external regulator has an equalization  mode but a typical alternator will never  give you Equalization equalization is a  very high voltage and honestly  equalization is going to be a side topic  for sure because let's be honest it  doesn't apply to most of us it's only  very few now even 5% of people will ever  equalize not even  I don't mind talking about it but this  sideline so with that we'll take maybe a  10-minute break and then we'll regroup  afterwards all right thank you